Wed 9 May 2012
President Obama: “I Think Same Sex Couples Should Be Able to Get Married”
Posted by Miss Info under about miss info , good for humanity , life beyond rap , quotes , relationships and family , videos[50] Comments
President Obama: “I have to tell you that over the course of several years as I have talked to friends and family and neighbors when I think about members of my own staff who are in incredibly committed monogamous relationships, same-sex relationships, who are raising kids together, when I think about those soldiers or airmen or marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and yet feel constrained, even now that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell is gone, because they are not able to commit themselves in a marriage, at a certain point I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.”
Obviously this isn’t a hip hop thing, or a fashion thing, or a celeb thing (but isn’t everything connected?)….but it’s a big deal when the President of the United States calls for a last minute TV interview, and tells ABC News that his position on gay marriage has “evolved” from thinking that civil unions were adequate for same-sex partners…to now believing that gay marriage should be legal and recognized. This comes just one day after North Carolina decides that gay marriage is a no-no. And just a few days after his veep Joe Biden said that he fully supports gay marriage because he was enlightened by the sitcom Will and Grace. LOL!
As William Truman and Grace Adler goes, so goes the Nation…
Now, there is some debate about whether Obama was forced into taking a public stance because of Biden’s comments. And there’s some grumbling that Obama tiptoe-ed into the stance when it was safer for him politically.
Meanwhile, others feel like Obama’s actually taking a huge risk because the concept of gay marriage (while it makes total sense to me) is still very contentious and controversial for the many less-open-minded folks in the country. (Pew research reports, via NPR: “46% favor allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally, while 44% are opposed..”)
Sometimes I wonder if opposition to this is more of an age thing…are there still young people who feel like gay marriage is a “threat” to the American way of life? What does that even mean?
Watch the Daily Show recap of Vice-President Joe Biden’s kooky gay-marriage endorsement…
After the jump
Joe Biden, pop culture expert, lol.
NYC Mayor Bloomberg’s response to Obama’s announcement: (via Politicker)
“This is a major turning point in the history of American civil rights. No American president has ever supported a major expansion of civil rights that has not ultimately been adopted by the American people–and I have no doubt that this will be no exception,” Mr. Bloomberg said. “The march of freedom that has sustained our country since the Revolution of 1776 continues, and no matter what setbacks may occur in a given state, freedom will triumph over fear and equality will prevail over exclusion.”
Related:
President Obama on #TrayvonMartin: “If I Had a Son, He’d Look Like Trayvon…All Of Us Have To Do Some Soul Searching”
Fight the Power Friday: Talib Kweli Visits “Occupy Wall Street” and More…
May 9th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Joe Biden, Now Obama, It’s about damn time! – in my future voice
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May 9th, 2012 at 5:54 pm
meh I’m old school enough to see the gay agenda for what it is. Read “After the Ball…” by Marshall Kirk to see what I mean by “AGENDA”.
I know some folks gonna call me a bigot (a tactic straight from after the ball), but I have my reasons to say this. Most young folks don’t reason anything out they just eat whatever pop-culture feeds them.
Oh well..
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May 9th, 2012 at 6:20 pm
I don’t get why it’s still an issue over there in the States (just like a whole bunch of other issues like the whole black & white thing). Gay people are able to marry here for more than 10 years now. Who cares?
Why would you want to marry any way these days?
But I’m from a country where you can walk into a coffeeshop and get some weed if you want to, so I guess we just have a totally permissive society.
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May 9th, 2012 at 6:30 pm
obama needs those votes. plus, if they wanna get married and be miserable like everyone else, let ‘em. lol.
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May 9th, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Wow — old white people stay losing…
https://twitter.com/#!/gsp1984/status/199912861139615746
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May 9th, 2012 at 7:49 pm
I think black people being against gay marriage is hilarious, we weren’t allowed to own land and they would also take our kids away from us because it was scientifically proven(back then) that we were inferior, thus being unfit to raise children. So goes the cycle i guess, we get rights and decide to refuse others, maybe in 50 years Gay people will deny Cylons their right to vote.
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Miss Info Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 7:53 pm
wow. kudos to cutting right to the bone. and also working in a Battlestar Galactica reference. this is the comment of the day. Are you a writer?
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Jason Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
haha yes a writer on the side, but i am a programmer, working my way towards making a missinfo.tv app!
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Jason Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 10:35 pm
let me rephrase, i wish i could be a writer, but that profession is not seen as stable job, so i am majoring in comp sci instead.
yoprince Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
i have to disagree with equating the black struggle with the LGBT struggle.
i do believe they are both problems caused by white male hegemony, yes.
However, while I do believe some people are born with a greater disposition to same-sex attraction, this is not the same as being born ‘gay.’ What people don’t realize is that the conservative religious right could care less about your dispositions. Their stance is if you were born that way, then SUFFER. Suffer in the name of christ. Go to work, go to church, get married, and save your gayness for your fantasies at night.
Of course, I think it’s all poppycock and you should live how you want, but I do understand their logic. There is a choice of sorts; you can choose to embrace your disposition or embrace the suffering.
Blacks have NO choice. We are colored the way we are colored. There is no choice of denial. This, for me, is a significant difference.
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Miss Info Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 8:41 pm
wow. that is a very tricky tricky thing…the belief that sexual orientation is a choice. That can lead to the idea that being gay is a weakness, or a surrender. While fighting the “urge” and being hetero is a triumph? I don’t think I agree with that. But I understand that race and orientation are not parallel identities.
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yoprince Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 9:23 pm
Well, I totally disagree with the apotheosis of suffering in general.
But religion places all of its bets on just that idea. And I can’t expect them to stop in that regard when it comes to homosexuality.
as much as I hate to admit this, I guess I just feel that in the context of the USA being a stupidly religious nation, the current argument against full gay rights is much stronger than the argument against civil rights for women and blacks in the early and mid-20th century.
kudos to myself and jason for getting two ‘wows’ out of Miss Info in the span of two hours.
Miss Info Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 9:27 pm
I love when the comments section is used for actual commentary about larger issues. even though I know the actual readership of these posts is way smaller. I dunno…sometimes it’s discouraging, but this is why I blog anyways. To just talk about things I’m interested in. And oftentimes…that’s not just about rap.
So thanks to the folks who join in.
Jason Reply:
May 9th, 2012 at 10:18 pm
How long do you guys think it will be that the tide starts to turn and gay bashing turns into “come on, this is still happening in 20XX?”, I feel that 25-50 years might be a little optimistic.
j-what Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 1:05 am
totally agree, you took the words right out of my mouth. I am not a huge Obama guy, its dangerous when we turn men into gods, although I think Obama chose to be on the “right” side of history, only time will tell how this story unfolds, but I don’t see his stance on this matter being big enough an issue come November to cost him reelection.
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London Town Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 11:13 pm
I completely agree.
And the whole “Pre-disposition” argument is my exact belief about whether people are born homosexual.
Whilst i’m pro “letting anybody live how they want as long as it doesn’t harm others” i understand that the US is still a ‘Christian’ state and that ‘Marriage’ is a very christian thing whilst ‘homosexuality’ is not.
Therefore i do feel that allowing same sex weddings to occur in a church for example is not right at this point.
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 12:11 am
I understand what you are saying: People with a history of oppression shouldn’t actively be prejudiced against other minorities, but the two situations aren’t the same.
My people were stolen, sold, held captive, and denied the right to be human! Gay people are being denied the right to get married….I agree with moving forward and allowing gay marriage, but the challenges of the two groups are not similar.
Also, I really wish people would discuss the huge amount of racism and prejudice within the gay community. Many gay minorities talked about this when prop 8 got passed. The news had a lot of gay people who blamed blacks for the bill’s success , and they were also on t.v. spewing the “N” word. I remember a black lgbt person talking about how some gay people refuse to date/marry outside of their race. lol. so don’t act like this problem of hate is all one sided.
So yeah, this brings us one step closer to equality, but the gay community has it’s own issues with equality within it’s own group.
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Melf Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 1:36 am
This is probably the dumbest thing I ever read.
Huge amount of racism within the gay community? Do you have any proof for that statement? Because if you don’t that would be the perfect example of discrimination.
That’s like saying ‘black people are…’. But I guess you’ll be the first in line to scream ‘racism!’ when that happens.
Besides that, I don’t think it’s a real community as it is a sexual preference. You’re not raised in a gay community and I can’t imagine that if somebody likes people of the same gender that he or she will become more racist. Because that’s what you’re suggesting. That gay people are somewhat more racist than straight people. Otherwise they wouldn’t have an issue, would they?
It’s not even racist if you’re simply not attracted to people with certain appearance. The stupidity is mindboggling.
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
You obviously are uninformed, and have a problem with reading comprehension. Ask an African American, or minority LGBT person if there is a problem with racism within the LGBT community.
I just gave you evidence to support what I said. Did you watch the 2008 election? The “N” word was flowing freely from the mouths of many angry LGBT people.
Racial discrimination is a problem within our greater society, and this is no different within the LGBT community. Many white gay people refuse to date/marry black/minority gays. There are also gay bars that discriminate against black/minority gays. There is a racial separation within the LGBT community, and i’m not making that up.
I brought this up because the original poster was chastising black people for being prejudiced, and my point was that their is also prejudice even within the gay community.
I wasn’t implying that gay people are racist, or that children raised by gay parents/caregivers would become more racist. I never even mentioned children. I was highlighting the fact that no group is immune to hate, ignorance, discrimination, or prejudice, not even the LGBT community.
please stop rambling. LGBT isn’t a real community? What the hell are you talking about? Also, I’m not saying it’s racist to not be attracted to someone, but it is racist and prejudiced to refuse to date/marry someone specifically because of their “race”. please learn logic.
Melf Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 2:08 pm
@jwilliams:
Why would you date or marry someone if you’re not attracted to that person? That does not make any sense.
You’re generalizing a whole group of people because of a few racist individuals. That’s like saying that black people hate gay people because I heard some homophobic hiphop songs.
You’re not even giving statistics but base your opinion on some outrageous people on the TV. Why do you think they aired those people in the first place?
Being gay isn’t a culture. It’s a sexual orientation, it doesn’t say anything about a person besides that he or she is attracted to people of the same gender. There are communities that consist OF gay people, but that doesn’t mean that if you’re gay, you’re automatically part of a community. Most NBA players are tall, so I guess that if you’re tall, you must be an NBA player according to you. Or at least most tall people must be NBA players. I saw tall people on the television and they were playing basketball. Ask them.
You’re highlighting that no group is immune to hate, ignorance etc? Wow, awesome. Way to state the obvious. I thought that being ignorant was only possible if you were straight.
London Town Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 11:27 pm
Since you love Semantics.
“Sexual Preference” suggest choice. “Sexual Orientation” perhaps?
Jason Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 3:11 am
Whilst I wasn’t equating the struggles as a whole of the two groups, you must admit the similarities in the struggle to obtain (what should be)a simple right.
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 5:40 pm
Melf ,
“Why would you date or marry someone if you’re not attracted to that person? That does not make any sense.”
I’m talking about someone using race as a reason for not dating someone, not a lack of attraction.
I’m not generalizing anything. I’m saying that racism is a problem in the LGBT community. I say this specifically in reference to the original poster’s thought that black people should not stand in the way of the rights of LGBT people, given the history of slavery. My point was that no group is immune to prejudice even though they themselves may experience some form of discrimination. Case in point, racism in the LGBT community.
No I didn’t list statistics, but you can google “Racism in the LGBT community” for yourself, and read people’s own accounts.
Being gay isn’t a culture unto itself, however cultural groups do exist in society. For example, hip hop has its own culture, nomenclature, symbols, and beliefs.
Like Hip-Hop, many modern cultures/sub-cultures grow out of some form of alienation, or discrimination.
Sometimes these cultures grow into movements and advocate for larger rights for the community as a whole. This was the case with the Civil Rights movement.
It is true that not every individual who shares some similarity with a group/community/movement belongs to said group/community, but many times the actions of a group/community/movement has an effect on an individual and vice versa.
Rodney King is a perfect example of an individual, being tangentially (being black) related to a larger group/ community, having a profound effect on said “community”.
The Civil Rights Movement is a perfect example of a “community” having an effect on an individual.
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 5:51 pm
Also, Melf
Being Tall has no correlation to being in the NBA. Tall people don’t have a history of being discriminated against, and neither do NBA players.
You’re trying to say that i’m making a logical fallacy,(example of a logical fallacy: all fathers are male, Bill Maher is male; therefore, he’s a father.) but I make no such fallacy because I never made any generalizations in my posts.
You’re accusing me of saying person x is gay; the LGBT community is comprised of gay people; therefore person x is a part of the LGBT community. However, I never claimed that all gay people are in the LGBT community.
Melf Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
I googled “Racism in the LGBT community”, got less than 30.000 results. Next I googled “black people hate gay people”, and got more than 200.000 results.
So I guess black people hate gay people ten times more than racism occurs in the LGBT community.
Don’t base opinions on opinions. Base your opinions on statistics and common sense.
I don’t even get what point your trying to make. Some people in the LGBT community are racist. That’s the point you want to make in an article about whether or not gay people should be allowed to marry? That’s the most relevant thought that came up in your head?
And how about black gay people in the LGBT community? They must be dealing with racism issues against white people? Or is it just white gay people who are racist?
bullets Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 11:39 am
the black struggle and the homosexual struggle are not the same… Blacks were denied basic human rights like reading or looking at white men and women in the eyes… Your not going to sit here and tell me some guy fighting to wear a dress to work is the same thing. Marriage is a religious thing let religions deal with it as opposed to somehting as menial as gay marriage being used as a distraction for bs to argue about while real issues occur..
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Young Scuba Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I remember reading that being homosexual was a mental illness up until 1980 so despite it not being exactly the same, what the gay community have gone through has almost been as horrible
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May 9th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
i agree gays should be able to get married.
i don’t deny, however, that it is a threat to the American way of life. the USA is a country that has never elected a female president, nor would we ever elect an outright atheist. what does that tell you? we are still a patriarchal, Protestant society.
sometimes it may be hard to remember but the USA is not just New York City, Los Angeles, Miami, Atlanta and Chicago.
you can’t forget the people who watch 2 and a Half Men, eat at Olive Garden and go to church on Wednesdays and Sundays and on New Years Eve. these people are threatened, and i don’t know the numbers, but they’re probably having more kids than the rest of us.
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 12:53 am
Obama and Biden are playing strategic mind games with Romney. Remember, Mitt Romney was Gov. of Massachusetts when that state became the first to legalize gay marriage. Romney even courted the lgbt community while campaigning. Romney is gonna have a lot to spin and a lot of ‘splainin’ to do during this election season. I can’t wait for the debates *Bart Scott voice.
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May 10th, 2012 at 12:32 am
Mans it’s gonna be a tough decision for me this year as a Christian pickig between a Morman and a gay activist.
As a young Christian I have never accepted gay marriage mainly for the use of the term marriage as I have always understood marriage as a Christian bond between a man and a woman.
Obviously by this definition gay marriage makes nonsense at all. But that doesn’t mean I am against people making their own choices or living lives as they please. Have no problem with gay unions and whatever else.
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HipHop Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 8:05 am
couple questions for you:
1) When did Obama became a gay actitivist?
2)Christian bond? so when Jews, hindu’s, muslim’s, mormon’s, scientologists’ ( list goes on)tie the knot, it’s not considered marriage?
3) isn’t it obvious you contradicted your stance in the last paragraph of your statement?
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Abel Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
1. Supporting gay marriage = gay activitist ,supporter what ever. That was my drift
2.let me be more clear a religious bond. From my point of a view a CHristian bond.
3.contradicted my self? People are allowed their choices . Just don’t go dragging things that have been around for years into your battler for equality or whatever. I view marriage as a religious bond and between a man and woman. My view. You are entitled to yours.
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May 10th, 2012 at 9:11 am
Just want to say that I am thoroughly enjoying this debate…its an issue that needs to be talked about. While my stance is pro gay marriage, my footing on the subject is somehow not that austere. My “enlightened” and forward thinking self understands why this needs to be done to push society forward. Nothing really is constant so embracing change seems wise but then in the back of my head, my years of childhood church going still places “God” in my ear saying “you’ll go to hell for this shit” lol…I’m torn, but ultimately I’m going to move firmly towards pro gay marriage…just have to tussle with the creator of all things a little more for control over my mind lol
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May 10th, 2012 at 10:24 am
I don’t see what the big deal is, why a person would care one way or the other, straight people it doesn’t affect you, and all you homos can be as queer as you want regardless of laws past
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May 10th, 2012 at 11:21 am
nothing suspect about his timing at all…
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May 10th, 2012 at 11:34 am
i dont claim any religion but isnt marriage a christian,jewish,muslim thing?? Doesnt the Bible and quran sentence homosexuals to death on multiple occasions?? Obama knows what to say to get re-elected but common sense says you cant really believe that homo sexual marriage is ok.. Two people being legally married! thats no big deal you can have a bond with a goat if you want but marriage is religious just doesnt make sense to me..
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May 10th, 2012 at 11:48 am
i personally believe homosexuality is a choice i’ve never met a lesbian or gay man that wasnt molested as a child or was deprived of what most of us would call a “normal” upbringing I’ve seen people on Television say they always knew they were gay funny though i only see them on low budget talk shows. Furthermore just like any drug pleasure can easily become a deviancy! Everyone gets a sort of excitement when they do things they arent supposed to and once you’ve crossed that threshold of deviancy its similar to killing someone why not do it again. It just seems like a twisted sort of thought process, anyone can love anyone but love and sex arent the same thing siblings love each other but im sure you dont say to yourself “Damn i want to fuck my cousin or brother or best friend he’s sexy!” That to me is strange a guy loving a guy cool happens all the time a guy fukcing a guy now that’s where you lose me. what comes fro this you cant reproduce and no matter how tuff a chick dresses she still has a period why deny your nature?
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
There is some truth to what you wrote, but there is also some misinformation in what you wrote.
For example, I do believe that if a boy or girl is molested at a young age that they may become sexually confused as an adult. Case in point, The boy who was molested by the Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky. Maybe he is a gay child or maybe he is a heterosexual child. No one knows.
However, if he is a heterosexual child, and he grows up to be sexually confused due to Sandusky’s abuse (Psychiatrists have documented cases of this) , who would find that strange?
However, people like Richard Simmons were born gay. No one will ever convince me otherwise. So it is both true and false that some people can become sexually confused, and some people are just “Born This Way”.
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Melf Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 2:19 pm
Then how many gay people did you meet in your lifetime?
Lol @ homosexuality is a choice and suggesting that most gay people we’re molested as a child or deprived from a normal upbringing.
I didn’t know there we’re still people thing that way.
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jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
I’m convinced that you have a low I.Q.
I did not say that homosexuality is a choice, or that MOST people who identify themselves as gay or lgbt are “faking it” or sexually confused. I merely offered the opinion that in SOME, NOT ALL or MOST, cases people who identify themselves as lgbt are in fact sexually confused due to childhood sexual trauma.
Please go read something–anything. Dr. Seuss? Your ignorance is painful.
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Melf Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Well no, my IQ is > 130, I wasn’t even replying to you, it was a reply to bullets.
Please, learn how the comment system works before you make any assumptions about my IQ. It’s not that hard.
jwilliams Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Melf are you even from America? If you’re not, I don’t even know why I’m discussing American culture with you since you probably don’t know shit about it.
Melf Reply:
May 11th, 2012 at 5:53 am
America, wonderful country where religion, racism and discrimination are still part of daily life.
Wonderful culture.
Actually, I talk a lot about cultural differences with my American friends (who are living in Holland at the moment).
You must be one of those people who only discuss culture with like-minded people. And with like-minded, I mean narrowminded.
Although I still wonder if the black people in the LGBT community are racist according to you.
jwilliams Reply:
May 11th, 2012 at 11:21 am
I would assume that black American LGBT people are far less racist. Black American people are way less prejudiced than anyone else in America because we’ve existed for 100′s of years in a low caste, absorbing mainstream, white American culture and modifying it. The only other “racial” minority that has had a greater influence on American culture are Jewish Americans.
Black Americans are the only minority group from the colonial American period that endured hell and survived. The Native Americans were tortued as well, but not many of them survived, changed their situation, and also changed America.
President Obama’s election is a great triumph, and a testament to the survival, diversity and openness of black Americans, and the openness of a great many other “races”.
As you know, every community has its dark side, but the black American community has so much “racial” diversity, going back centuries, that it’s a lot easier to accept people who may not look exactly like the you.
Bessie Smith, Nina Simone look a lot different than Lena Horne, Dorothy Dandridge, but they are black. Miles Davis didn’t look like El Debarge, but they are both black.
Black Americans have no choice but to accept diversity, given our history; However, often times, other groups don’t have to. They can hide behind a perceived homogeneity, wealth, and influence, pretending as if the “other” doesn’t exist.
Here are two interesting articles:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marten-weber/gay-racism_b_1295368.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurence-watts/gay-racism_b_1307819.html
bullets Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 10:21 am
what do mean how many gay people do i know?? Whats the odds that everytime you meet a homosexual that there from some sick upbringing or broken home, i dont believe in coincidences. Yes there are still people who think like me! People who still think that a man and a woman is natural behavior, people who have common sense enough to know men have sperm and woman have eggs! sounds logical to me! So you tell me the reason behind a man looking in the mirror at his broad shoulders hearing his deep voice and saying “i think i should’ve been a woman!” That my friend is sickness! You tell me the logic behind a woman who says she likes women, yet has a woman that acts like a man in every way as a partner! that is sickness and confusion you can be all we are the world if you want but i know deviancy and confusion when i see it! And to your point about America, “America, wonderful country where religion, racism and discrimination are still part of daily life.” compared to a hemisphere where genocide is the norm you should be quiet. More people die by the hour on your side of the world than they do by the year on mine, and most if not all is a direct result of religion, racism and discrimination. They call black people niggers in Africa for God sake smh…And there aint no fucking Vatican over here bro! Think about it
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Melf Reply:
May 16th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
More people die here by the hour compared than they do by the year in the US? Well let’s grab the average life expectancy.
United States overall: 78.2 years
The Netherlands overall: 79.8 years
‘According to recent surveys, 83 percent of Americans identify with a religious denomination’
In Holland that’s less than 30%. You’re talking bullshit, think about it. Your views are really outdated and based on nothing but emotions.
You’re making random assumptions and then say that you don’t believe in coincidences. You tell me what the odds are that gay people are from some sick upbringing or broken home. Please give me statistics.
According to your logic, there would be a MUCH highter percentage of gay people in countries where more kids come from broken homes. Man, Africa would be full of gay people!
May 10th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
So much fuckery in here i am not sure what to tackle first.. so i will just say, I have no issues with gay marriage..but i think comparing race and sexuality is ridiculous.
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Melf Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
What’s ridiculous about comparing two groups of people that are being discriminated because of something they can’t do anything about?
Both black people and gay people didn’t have a choice and don’t harm anyone, yet other people don’t treat them as equal and deny them certain rights.
They’re not the same, but the comparison itself is pefectly fine.
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HipHop Reply:
May 10th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
Generally they’re not the same, but i could see a contrast…homo’s can do everything “freedom” has to offer except get married…it has no effect on people’s personal lives. if they want to be married let them, it’s just a piece of paper anyways (contract) they’re fighting for, I really dont see why there’s so much issues around this…
“Judge not or you’ll be judged first”
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May 19th, 2012 at 2:11 pm
@Melf So the Netherlands and Holland account for your entire hemisphere is what your saying?? smh one thing you can never do is win an argument w/ a fool…True principles and the right way to live can never be outdated ….
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